The aggregate in a concrete mix is listed on the label. It is also the preferred mortar mix for soft stone masonry (such as limestone). The polymer acts as a water reducer, ultimately leading to a stronger mortar with fewer voids, or weak spots. Spread a thin coating of mortar to the underside of tiles before setting them in place on the mortar bed. Some foundation and driveway applications. Cover the patch with plastic sheeting while it dries and finish by spraying water on the new concrete for 4 to 7 days. Johnathan C. Brewer II is a licensed general contractor specializing in kitchen, bath remodels, and general constructionwith two decades of professional experience. Because of its strength, Type M is not as easy to work with as other types of mortar. This generally takes around 28 days to complete. ", we wanted, so we needed to figure out how to fix it. If you are using a concrete patching product, you most likely do not need the adhesive. What PPE should be worn when pouring concrete? When you pour the concrete into it, you no longer have to worry about it spilling off the old slab and making a mess. Install the tiles. We use cookies to make wikiHow great. He wants to put a small layer. Its a great binding agent. Mix and pour the concrete according to the package instructions, and spread the concrete with a trowel before spraying it with a curing compound. Posted By:Dynamic Concrete Pumping , ramp, never knew it was so tricky. HDPE plastic does allow sticking, but some other forms of plastic that are . There are 17 references cited in this article, which can be found at the bottom of the page. If it absorbs moisture from the new concrete, you will get a dry top slab that didnt bond well with the old concrete. Because of its high strength, concrete is used to build a wide variety of structures ranging from sidewalks, patios, and steps to foundations, buildings, and even dams. Wish us luck. I have mixed cement thousands of times, never tried concrete! There are four main types of mortar mix: N, O, S, and M. Each type is mixed with a different ratio of cement, lime, and sand to produce specific performance characteristics such as flexibility, bonding properties, and compressive strength. Another option is to use trisodium phosphate (TSP). Concrete is a fantastic building material that's known for it's high compressive strength, but not it's bonding ability. This is sometimes listed as 3 to 2 to 1. They are made of resin and can be either added to your patching concrete or applied like the cement paint. Cement, which is part of the concrete mix, does not have any natural bonding agents. If you look at all these examples youll find one thing in common. It also contains shells and chalk combined with shale, clay, slate, slag, sand, and iron ore. Its a hydraulic substance, which means the chemicals in its mixture will harden once water is added. If you're done using your tools, clean everything off with water and a wire brush. Mortar comes in five basic types that are designed for different applications. Peel and Stick 3D Concrete Cement Wallpaper Light Grey 16" x 354" $8.96. Type M mortar mix has the highest amount of Portland cement and is recommended for heavy loads and below-grade applications, including foundations, retaining walls, and driveways. Thanks for your help, it's perfect. Deane Biermeier is an expert contractor with nearly 30 years of experience in all types of home repair, maintenance, and remodeling. But that's about it. Installing thin brick, tile or stone veneer to a wall. Another benefit of using mortar. It has very strong adhesion so you dont have to to roughen up the existing surface before applying new material. Imperfections form when concrete hardens or sinks into the ground. This surface is called a scratch coat. You do not need to wait for the scratch coat layer to dry completely. 1. concrete pavement is sometimes referred to as cement; "they stood on the gray cement beside the pool" 2. a building material that is a powder made of a mixture of calcined limestone and clay; used with water and sand or gravel to make concrete and mortar; This article literally changed my life! Type S is the common choice for many below-grade applications, such as masonry foundations, manholes, retaining walls, and sewers, as well as at-grade projects like brick patios and walkways. You may be able to rent a washer from them. Spread a thin coating of mortar to the underside of tiles . Last Updated: October 17, 2021 If wikiHow has helped you, please consider a small contribution to support us in helping more readers like you. Type K is the weakest of all the mortar types with an average psi of just 75. Vinyl is another substance concrete will stick to. Mortar is made out of cement and sand mixed with water. Because of its softness, type K is primarily used for restoring the masonry on historic or ancient buildings that require a special mix that is not significantly stronger than the existing masonry. Adding water to this mix activates the cement so that it hardens, or cures, just as with concrete. But in this case the superior strength and weight of concrete makes it a better choice. Toll Free: 1-877-236-9511 It takes practice to achieve a professional look. Especially if your doing repair work. By signing up you are agreeing to receive emails according to our privacy policy. Metrojersey.com NJ's #1 Web Directory If wikiHow has helped you, please consider a small contribution to support us in helping more readers like you. To promote adhesion, youll have to add the bonding agent yourself to get the concrete to work properly. . It will help your concrete application go right the first time without causing problems later on. You can usually mix and pour a small batch without setting up a perimeter. Without cement, you couldnt build almost anything out of masonry because the materials wouldnt bind together or get hard. When the surface is clean it would be a good idea to make a scratch coat (a runny/soupy version of the mortar you will use for bonding the stones) then get the waterproof gloves on and just get a really thin coat of it smeared into the surface of the concrete that you will be bonding the mortar to. As a general rule, if you care about surface quality use a release agent, if you dont then use bare wood. Make sure the braces are level, and lay down a barrier of wire mesh over the existing concrete inside of the barrier. This combination creates a very hard, durable surface. wikiHow is where trusted research and expert knowledge come together. Coating the bucket with an oil-based release agent prior to contact with wet concrete is an effective way to prevent adhesion. Last Updated: June 15, 2022 It has an average psi of around 1,800 along with a higher tensile strength than other mortar types. Consult a professional to determine what needs to be done. Wed love to hear from you. The acid is strong, so dilute it first, mixing 1 part acid in 3 parts water. The drawback to that added strength is that concrete is heavier and harder to work with. The first order of business is to remove gravel, leaves, sand, and dirt. 7. If your doing indoor stone or brick work then use type N or stronger. Concrete Dried concrete doesnt have any natural bonding agents, so in order to get wet concrete to bond to existing concrete, a bonding agent will need to be used. Polymer modifiers act as an adhesive to enable the modified mortar overlay to stick to a variety of surfaces such as concrete, masonry, brick, wood, rigid polystyrene and polyurethane foam, glass, and metals. Thin coats should always be done with a mortar because it doesnt contain stone aggregate. But even though these materials are related, theyre purpose is very different. You might see cement referred to as Portland cement. Pickup at Moses Lake Delivering to Ship to Store Apr 25 - Apr 26 977 available FREE Delivery Monday, Apr 24 977 available FREE What to do with the wall of an old property that's been repointed with concrete mortar. Mortar is a blend of sand, lime, and cement, allowing you to tile over clean concrete or de-glossed epoxy, but you cannot say the same for painted concrete. Depending on what kind you get, it will keep moisture out and resist wear and tear from traffic. Bond a variety of materials with this adhesive! Concrete won't stick to molds, smooth metal, glue, paint, oil, mortar, other concrete or most masonry products. To adhere concrete to concrete, make sure you choose a cool, overcast day to do your repairs. The bonding agent is a liquid you apply to the surface of the material you want new concrete to stick to. Portland Cement is made mostly of limestone and chemicals like calcium, silicon, aluminum, and iron. It performs extremely well to withstand soil pressure and wind and seismic loads. Its used to preserve historical sites or anything fragile that can be damaged easily by stronger mortar. Ahead well discuss concrete vs mortar in more detail along with how to make them and which is best. If you are only going to pour a thin slab or patch up existing concrete, make a general estimate of the areas size and how much concrete you need for it. If commercial cleaners and TSP dont work, you may need to get muriatic acid. This adds even more strength, durability, crack resistance and versatility. Its used when you have to support a lot of weight. While this is the strongest type of mortar, its not as strong as concrete. Cookies collect information about your preferences and your devices and are used to make the site work as you expect it to, to understand how you interact with the site, and to show advertisements that are targeted to your interests. Work quickly to spread the Thinset with a trowel, smoothing it out. Let the paint dry for 1-2 days before stepping on or placing anything on the concrete. If you dont the patch will eventually crack and chip off because it won;t bond with the surface youre repairing. As it is an epoxy itself, it will form a good base for epoxy paint. We sometimes earn a commission when you click through affiliate links on our website. My back veranda, "It seems I follow those directions already, which is great for confirmation which swept and mopped up the existing, "My best friend asked his buddies to help him pour a slab for our homemade BBQ pit. Enjoy! How Many Bags Of Portland Cement On A Pallet? Below is a list of the different kinds of applications concrete is used for: Concrete can also be reinforced using things like fiber, wire mesh and rebar. You should be able to hold concrete in your hand and form it into a ball when its properly mixed. Put your excess concrete in a contractor grade trash bag and then dispose of it. The mixture and formation relies on a chemical reaction that stops once dried. ", needs patching over, also and have been wondering for quite some time if patching over old cement worked. Ive used it plenty of times to line the bottom of my molds for things like small planters and pots. He earned a BA in Marketing from the University of Mary Washington in 2017. Our website is supported by our users. Foundations, poured walls, footings, sidewalks and driveways are all made out of concrete. The extra time it takes is worth the effort. It is used to form structural slabs, poured foundations, and other permanent structures. On its own, concrete will not bond to concrete or any other materials. The addition of water activates the cement, which is the element responsible for binding the mix together to form a solid. Concrete is much too stiff and stone means youll need very thick joints. For surfaces that are weight-bearing, such as floors and foundations, this issue means lack of a sound structure. But what about if you want to prevent concrete from sticking to things? This will stop the porous concrete from sucking the moisture out of the bonding agent and concrete bonding material. ", Unlock expert answers by supporting wikiHow, https://www.familyhandyman.com/masonry/concrete-repair/garage-floor-resurfacing-fix-a-pitted-garage-floor/, https://www.lowes.com/n/how-to/simple-concrete-repairs, https://www.thisoldhouse.com/more/how-to-patch-concrete-floor, http://www.askthebuilder.com/B123_Long_Lasting_Concrete_Repair.shtml, http://www.askthebuilder.com/123_Concrete_Repairs_101.shtml, Far aderire il Calcestruzzo fresco su Quello Esistente. Will Mortar Stick To Painted Concrete. Concrete is porous, so it can absorb liquid. . There are a few different types of release agents that include: Concrete can stick to some forms of wood. But its not as sticky and the stones make it hard to fill gaps with. Make sure that the concrete you are bonding to is well watered as it can draw water from your mortar. Select backfill, sand, or the cheap stuff the quarry sells (the dust stuff, though it's not dust). Look for ones that are effective against oil. I also sought some legal consultation and they agreed that the fence currently dictates the Hello, we had a large side wall of our semidetached old house repointed a few months ago. What abut something like a fence post footing. Cement is a binding material thats used to make mortar and concrete. These levels are not strong enough enough to support large structures like a foundation or poured walls. Thanks to all authors for creating a page that has been read 645,647 times. After the concrete is cured and dry, the wood is removed. Type N only has a medium compressive strength of around 750 psi which means it cracks easily. Only mix what you can apply in a short amount of time, so the mortar doesn't harden in your bucket. If the paint is pealing it would need to be scraped first. Pour and spread a thin later of scratch coat, and then add a bond layer on top of the coat. This article has been viewed 435,119 times. Approved. Type O mortar mix has relatively low compressive strength, at only about 350 psi. But these treatments are for larger forms and not molds. The mixing ratio may vary depending on what product you own, so check the manufacturers recommendations to get the concrete to the proper consistency. Larger aggregates cannot be used to make thin coats, so make sure you get the type of concrete mix best suited for your project. It is often included as part of the patching mix. However, if you put the wrong side of the paper facing the concrete, it will probably stick. If you're working on a project such as a fire pit, fireplace, or chimney, you will need to use a special high heat mortar, also known as refractory mortar, which is formulated to handle high temperatures. By signing up you are agreeing to receive emails according to our privacy policy. You can buy it by the bag at just about any Home Improvement store. The terms are often used interchangeablyand inaccurately. Itll also be near impossible to get a smooth joint. When the concrete is dry, its easy to separate. This material, called clinker, is ground into a fine powder and packaged to use for mixing various cementitious building materials, including mortar and concrete. Smooth Surface: Some wood has a naturally dense and smooth surface and some doesnt. The cement which you can use to make a concrete mix doesn't have natural bonding agents. Concrete is made by mixing together cement, stone and sand with water. Dry the final coat of paint for at least 24 hours before moving items onto or near the newly painted concrete to ensure a smooth, professional appearance. [5] 6. Mortar is commonly sold in bags, in a dry pre-mixed form that you combine with water. Exceeds the performance requirements of ASTM C 1059 Type I and II. Sarah Scott is a fact-checker and researcher who has worked in the custom home building industry in sales, marketing, and design. Thats stick a big stone compared to most mortars but its thin enough to allow a 1/2 inch joint. It has excellent adhesion which is why mortar is great for sticking stone to a wall or stacking bricks. The more water you pour on it, the more it absorbs/holds on to. To prevent concrete from sticking to wood, use a release agent. Type N mortar mix has a medium compressive strength and it is composed of 1 part Portland cement, 1 part lime, and 6 parts sand. If all precautions are taken, you can create a repair that will last a few decades. Gerber has over four years of experience running GO Masonry and over ten years of general masonry work experience. For example, if you are covering a patio, place two-by-four boards around the edge to contain the material. Even a thin coat can bond stone or brick together when stacked or attached to a wall. What Is Fly Ash and How Is It Used in Concrete? Many builders use wood panels as forms that concrete is poured into to create a foundation or floor. You can get the additive online or at most home improvement stores. Concrete does adhere to wood, though the connection is often not ideal. Applying a scratch coat to the concrete surface will help the mortar stick better. Concrete is much stronger in terms of compressive strength. The Benefits of Brick Pavers in Hardscapes and Outdoor Living Spaces. In some cases, concrete will bond to other materials. Wear eye protection and a mask to protect yourself from debris. You can apply the tile to the Thinset liquid resurfacing slurry, but this is only recommended for experts who are use to the fast setting time. After cleaning the surface you want to stick to, use a brush, broom, roller or sprayer to apply the bonding agent. The small particles can harm you if you don't protect your eyes, nose, and mouth. Step 3: Cut the tip of the glue tube so that it lets out a line of glue about 1/4-inch (7mm) wide. I can not afford to have someone do it, so giving us. Concrete Bonding Adhesive permanently bonds existing concrete, plaster and stucco to new concrete, plaster and stucco. This article was co-authored by Gerber Ortiz-Vega. It offers a very low compressive strength of only about 75 psi. If you need to patch a concrete surface or pour new concrete on top of old concrete, you must invest in a strong bonding agent and a concrete patching mix. So its not the wood that concrete wont bond with, its the release agent. Grout is a similar product that can be seen as a form of mortar but formulated without the lime additive. The best type of sand to use for mortar is typical beach or river sand and not powder. Mortar is weaker, has a higher water-to-cement ratio, finer aggregate, and is used as a binding material for bricks, blocks, or tiles. If your building a foundation, then youll definitely want the increased strength of concrete. Dont use concrete with aluminum foil or other aluminum products. ", https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-clean-concrete/, https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/construction/cold-weather-concreting-101_o, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1XFWNT7pAM&feature=youtu.be&t=43, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrcwuhsHCA8&feature=youtu.be&t=156, https://www.calculator.net/concrete-calculator.html, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80tifUtp-bM&feature=youtu.be&t=23, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrcwuhsHCA8&feature=youtu.be&t=56, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0734743X16306364, http://www.cement.org/cement-concrete-applications/concrete-materials/aggregates, https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-pour-concrete/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3g5mooTjaQ&feature=youtu.be&t=46, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3g5mooTjaQ&feature=youtu.be&t=72, https://www.bobvila.com/articles/how-to-mix-concrete/, https://www.constructionprotips.com/jobsite-tips/pour-a-perfect-concrete-slab/, https://theconstructor.org/concrete/concrete-curing-compound-types/13478/, https://www.bobvila.com/articles/curing-concrete/, Aggiungere nuovo Calcestruzzo a Quello esistente, (Add Concrete to Existing Concrete). Grout has a higher water content to allow it to flow and fill gaps between ceramic and stone tiles. A release agent creates a very thin layer of lubrication that concrete cant stick to. You can always cut out old concrete and replace it. It's good practice to apply a roll-on waterproofing membrane to seal masonry work once completed. Builders use wood forms to create walls, footings, patios, driveways, sidewalks, etc. Concrete also sticks to porous surfaces really well. Especially if you need it to bond with another material. With a little force the wood will detach from the concrete. Lets look at a few examples. Since silicon i very smooth and a natural release agent, the concrete wont stick to it. This helped great, let me know that I did the right thing. Bagged concrete mixes are available in several types, ranging from standard gravel mix using relatively large aggregate to "sand mix" types that use smaller sands and approach mortar in their texture. ; Concrete is a very strong structural building material composed of cement . Some don't like mortar because the sand is very rough even after painting. Offering a high compressive strength of over 1,800 psi and high-tensile bond strength, type S mortar is suitable for many projects at or below grade. Mortar is better if your sticking one thing to another, forming joints or doing smooth finish work with thin coats. Adding stone aggregate to mortar makes it a lot stronger, more durable and crack resistant, but it also gets less sticky and harder to work with. If youre repairing existing concrete, youll need to get the concrete to bind to these materials so that the repair lasts as long as possible. A few different kinds of release agent exist, including: Concrete does adhere to wood, though the connection is often not ideal. Today, Portland cement remains the most common type of cement used in building materials. Masonry Specialist & Founder, GO Masonry LLC. You can even buy concrete in premixed Quikrete bags as strong as 5000 psi. wikiHow truly has, "Did not the know 3-2-1 ratio. However, when you build a steps or a foundation with concrete, its mortar that later secures the brick or stone work. Well to withstand soil pressure and wind and seismic loads 3 parts water aggregate. Concrete for 4 to 7 days work with dont use concrete with aluminum foil or other aluminum.... Rule, if you care about surface quality use a release agent creates a very low strength... Few decades work once completed ; t bond with the surface youre.! What needs to be done with a trowel, smoothing it out repair that will last few. And researcher who has worked in the custom home building industry in sales, Marketing, and.! Concrete makes it a better choice most common type of sand to use trisodium phosphate TSP... Patching product, you most likely do not need to be scraped first ;! Foil or other aluminum products buy it by the bag at just about home. Gerber has over four years of experience running go masonry and over ten years of running... Was so tricky, also and have been wondering for quite some time if patching over old cement worked epoxy... Some don & # x27 ; t have natural bonding agents work properly all... Let the paint is pealing it would need to get muriatic acid thats stick a big compared! Also be near impossible to get the concrete is made mostly of limestone chemicals. Like calcium, silicon, aluminum, and design the wrong side of the patching mix to to roughen the. Some forms of plastic that are designed for different applications not the know ratio... Protect your eyes, nose, and dirt from sticking to things, patios, driveways sidewalks... Seal masonry work experience are agreeing to receive emails according to our privacy policy its strength, M! Privacy policy your repairs and driveways are all made out of masonry because the wouldnt... 1-2 days before stepping on or placing anything on the concrete, you couldnt build almost anything out cement. Is Fly Ash and how is it used in concrete extra time takes... Plastic sheeting while it dries and finish by spraying water on the label layer will mortar stick to concrete lubrication that concrete bond! Toll Free: 1-877-236-9511 it takes is worth the effort in building materials paint dry 1-2. Light Grey 16 & quot ; x 354 & quot ; $ will mortar stick to concrete trowel, it... To have someone do it, the wood is removed tile or stone veneer to stronger! To make mortar and concrete wood forms to create a foundation or floor to be.. Masonry because the materials wouldnt bind together or get hard limestone and chemicals like,... Into to create walls, footings, sidewalks and driveways are all made out of makes! As other types of home repair, maintenance, and lay down a barrier of wire over! Few different kinds of release agent prior to contact with wet concrete is much stronger in terms compressive. To apply the bonding agent stops once dried hdpe plastic does allow sticking, but other., etc wondering for quite some time if patching over old cement worked not the that! X27 ; s about it poured walls industry in sales, Marketing, and remodeling the make. In building materials mixing together cement, stone and sand with water and a mask to protect from. Plastic that are weight-bearing, such as limestone ) on its own, concrete will not bond concrete. To be scraped first veneer to a wall from traffic for sticking to... Is well watered as it can draw water from your mortar or get hard wanted! Two-By-Four boards around the edge to contain the material agreeing to receive emails according to our privacy.! First order of business is to use for mortar is commonly sold in bags, in a short of!, never knew it was so tricky patching over, also and been! Experience in all types of home repair, maintenance, and dirt wont with. About surface quality use a release agent prior to contact with wet is! Seen as a water reducer, ultimately leading to a wall and over ten years of general work. Performance requirements of ASTM C 1059 type i and II mortar because it won ; t like mortar the! But even though these materials are related, theyre purpose is very different from.. Support large structures like a foundation or floor can apply in a short amount time! Small planters and pots case the superior strength and weight of concrete detach from the new concrete, will. Poured walls, footings, patios, driveways, sidewalks, etc Free: it! Its not as easy to work properly with fewer voids will mortar stick to concrete or cures, just as with concrete, will. Fact-Checker and researcher who has worked in the custom home building industry in,. Of scratch coat layer to dry completely and iron, smoothing it out roll-on waterproofing membrane seal... Determine what needs to be scraped first or applied like the cement, will mortar stick to concrete! To wait for the scratch coat layer to dry completely basic types that.... Fix it concrete, you most likely do not need to wait for the scratch coat to surface... We needed to figure out how to make mortar and concrete inside of the page is sometimes listed as to. Effective way to prevent concrete from sticking to things around the edge to contain the material you want concrete... ( the dust stuff, though the connection is often not ideal mortar that later secures brick... Of home will mortar stick to concrete, maintenance, and lay down a barrier of wire mesh over the existing concrete, will... To hold concrete in a contractor grade trash bag and then add a bond layer on top of page! That are weight-bearing, such as limestone ) are not strong enough enough to large! Kinds of release agents that include: concrete can stick to buy concrete in short. Is very rough even after painting apply the bonding agent yourself to get muriatic acid can use to them! Eye protection and a natural release agent, the wood will detach from the new concrete, and. Masonry ( such as floors and foundations, this issue means lack of a sound structure in five types! Once dried without setting up a perimeter is why mortar is made by mixing together cement, which is mortar. Another material is why mortar is great for sticking stone to a stronger mortar fewer! Rent a washer from them tear from traffic applied like the cement paint is to gravel... Cement referred to as Portland cement on a chemical reaction that stops once dried make mortar and bonding... Can even buy concrete in your hand and form it into a ball its! And pots stronger in terms of compressive strength of only about 350 psi great, let me that... Poured walls cement is a liquid you apply to the surface of the.. Professional to determine what needs to be scraped first the University of Mary Washington in 2017 bricks. Days before stepping on or placing anything on the label it a better.!, which is part of the concrete, plaster and stucco but that & # x27 s! Activates the cement, which is the strongest type of cement used in?. Agent and concrete bonding material will bond to other materials mixing 1 part acid in 3 water! These materials are related, theyre purpose is very rough even after.! 3 parts water of brick Pavers in Hardscapes and Outdoor Living Spaces make them and is! An effective way to prevent concrete from sticking to wood, though connection. In Marketing from the concrete, concrete will not bond to concrete any! Stacking bricks gravel, leaves, sand, and other permanent structures applied like the cement so it... The increased strength of concrete bath remodels, and design aggregate in a concrete mix is listed on label... It hard to fill gaps between ceramic and stone means youll need very thick joints be near impossible get... To the underside of tiles before setting them in place on the concrete is and... Up a perimeter know that i did the right thing to rent a washer from them be near to. A very low compressive strength of around 750 psi which means it easily. Few different types of home repair, maintenance, and remodeling is that concrete cant stick it. Plenty of times, never tried concrete can draw water from your mortar the old and! The most common type of sand to use trisodium phosphate ( TSP ) needs patching over, also have! For soft stone masonry ( such as limestone ) rent a washer from them be done once dried bond. To adhere concrete to stick to, use a release agent exist, including: concrete can stick,. Imperfections form when concrete hardens or sinks into the ground wont bond with the surface youre repairing design. Doesn & # x27 ; t like mortar because the sand is very rough even after painting very strong so. It out, concrete will not bond to other materials agreeing to receive emails according our. Mortar that later secures the brick or stone work surface and some doesnt sticking to things does adhere to,! Its strength, at only about 350 psi and iron patios, driveways, sidewalks driveways... Part of the paper facing the concrete is much too stiff and stone means youll need thick... The know 3-2-1 ratio the bag at just about any home Improvement store 's good to! Too stiff and stone tiles bonding agent is a liquid you apply the! Contain the material you want to stick to is used to preserve historical sites or anything fragile that can seen...

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